Microsoft’s Best Practices For Managing An Open Source Program Office

hi everybody i’m henry badgery and welcome back to the 10th episode of open source for business

brought to you by open teams today i was lucky enough to talk with stormy peters stormy is the director of

microsoft’s open source program office and for more than 20 years now she has been helping and

educating both companies and communities on how open source is changing the technology landscape

some of the topics and questions that we dive deep into today include what are microsoft specs

practices for setting up and managing an open source program office what has stormy been working on for the

past year at microsoft since you joined the company what is in a source and what is the key

to growing company backed open source projects and then also how do companies give back

to the open source projects that they rely on there is also quite a few other

topics which we dive into and we had a really really great chat so i’m really excited for you all to listen

stormy is active on social media uh particularly on twitter and you can find her at storming that is at storming

which i thought was awesome that she managed to get that twitter handle this episode is brought to you by open

teams the first market network where users of open source software

can find vet and contract with service providers to show support for this podcast it’d be

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well now that the introductions are out of the way let’s cue the music [Music]

stormy thank you so much for joining us thanks henry i’m super excited to be here

really really excited welcome to the podcast now i know you’ve been involved in open source for more than

two decades now and you’ve given presentations around the world and you’re definitely one of

the biggest uh the biggest leaders and thought thought leaders in open source software

but how did you first actually get into open source and how did you get where you are today

so i first got into open source when i was managing the cde team at hewlett packard and so cd is like the user interface for

for unix and i went to the standards meeting and i had a team of like 20 people fixing defects and adding features on cde

and i discovered that sun and ibm and others also had teams of people fixing the exact same defects and i was

like wow this is really crazy like we’re all doing the same work felt like we were back in college again and the professor

was like giving us an assignment do the same thing and this was just about the time that linux was coming out

um so as soon as linux came out i was like wow they they not only have like one but two desktops they have gnome and

kde and surely we could use one of those and the rest is history it turned out not to be a technical

problem like we were able to port gnome to hpx um working with a company called helix code

at the time later called simian um but it was a business problem you know telling people what open source

software was and how it worked and that we weren’t going to accidentally copy left all of hqx and you know give it away for free yeah

fascinating and what was the enterprise’s attitude or hp’s in particular but also the wider industry’s

attitude towards open source at that time at the time nobody knew what it was so

there wasn’t an attitude either one way or the other um but over time it was definitely one that people wanted to to participate but

they had a lot of concerns about i’m just not knowing what it was so i ended up working myself

into a job i created the one of the very first open source programs office at hp and then i helped hp’s customers

figure out how to use open source software and ended up talking around the world about our experience and actually made it to

sydney once which i think is your neck of the woods you go to the harbour breach i did i did

you did i really like this walking tour i took where they showed us like pubs where people got like drugged and taken down out into the

sea on ships i haven’t done that yet where where was that

it’s it’s like the old part of town up on a hill and there was a church that had the stained glass windows um that were the the inspiration for

characters in the book playing beady bow which i had no idea had taken place in sydney but remembered reading as a child

fascinating that’s very fascinating and just back to your history and your journey and evolution in open source so you started

at hp what was next for you where where do you think you really knew that you wanted to devote your career towards open source

yeah so i spent a while at hp doing open source i was there for 10 years started the open source programs office

helped customers was working with hp consulting to see what we could do there um but i knew i really wanted to help

more people and more companies use open source so i left there to go to a startup that was helping fortune 500 companies

use open source software um in a way that they were comfortable with so i did that went to nonprofits for a

while i was executive director of the genome foundation went to mozilla to mix firefox um kind of came full

circle now i’m back at microsoft running an open source programs office that is fantastic i know one thing that

you’ve definitely focused on in your career is building open source program offices both at hp but also running microsoft’s now

so for those listening what is an open source program office yeah and and what it is and where it

sits and what all it does depends a bit on the company um so like hp had the open source program office at microsoft is the open

source programs office which makes more sense in these days in a day and age because we do more

but essentially our job is to help microsoft use open source software um effectively within

their their their software strategy so we make sure that it’s easy for developers to use open source software

we make sure they’re in compliance when they decide to use it that they’re doing the right thing by the licenses um so our job is just to make it easy

and safe and legal for everybody to use open source software as they choose to within their business strategy

okay and why would any company want an open source program office what benefits does that what benefits do you accrue as time goes

on yeah well there’s lots of benefits to open source software um you can develop you can innovate

faster you can work directly with your customers and your partners you can save money by using existing software instead

of reinventing the wheel tons of great reasons to use open source software um you have an open source programs office you can make sure you’re

doing it the the right way so they’ll help you do it effectively and safely make sure you’re in compliance with

licenses that you’re connecting with others that you’re doing best practices from across the industry

okay and what are some of those best practices just that you’ve mentioned it oh there’s there’s lots of best

practices so one that we do is like we automatically detect um open source software when people do their build at

microsoft and then we use a project called clearly defined an open source software project to figure out what license is associated

with that project we recommend contributing back to the project so if you decide there’s an open

source software project that you that you really want to use and you download it and it has an issue

everyone’s first instinct is just kind of fix the issue and keep going but best practice is to contribute that

back in the form of a pull request so it goes back to the original project and then it gets maintained with the

whole project so you’re not running a fork um so so lots of best practices in open source software

um enough for a bunch of people have careers around it yeah definitely and that’s i’ve now talked to gil yehuda guy martin

and a lot of other people that’s actually been guests on the podcast and they’ve all had careers building and managing open source

program offices because i think it really has grown in the last 10 years what what is the shift or when

did you see the shift uh to where obviously hp was quite an early company of setting up an open

source program office but when did you see the shift where other enterprises other large enterprises

started setting up their own open source program offices that’s a good question i i i couldn’t

pinpoint a year when other companies started having open source programs offices but

i’ve definitely noticed in the last five to ten years that you’re not just seeing big software companies you’re

seeing like automotive companies you’re seeing banks you’re seeing you know large retail companies that you

know people interact with every day so so companies that aren’t software companies but they have software as part

of their you know their infrastructure are now not only using open source software but creating open source programs offices to

make sure that they’re you know getting the most out of it that they can contribute back that they can start projects of their own when it

makes sense okay that makes a lot of sense and i think um one thing is say if you are an

automotive company say compared to a primarily uh a software company is there a big

difference in what those open source program offices look like or are they kind of the same idea they

carry the same ideas they’re they’re mostly the same ideas um i think

that’s a that’s a good question so they’re they’re mostly the same um how they choose to use open source

software in their software strategy might might differ i think one of the things that

the open source software really gives companies that are new to it is a way to collaborate with people that would

normally be their competitors so there are non-profits like the linux foundation that

enable that cooperation between competitors um so they’re not all reinventing the wheel but they’re building a base that

they can all then offer their value add on top of okay so i think that’s quite new um

i’m just quite a new model yeah and it’s it is so exciting to be working in the field and just seeing these large

companies take uh using open source more than proprietary these days but if i am someone who’s working at a

company imagine i’m a manager or an executive and we don’t have an open source program

office in our company how do you go about setting up an open source program office

yeah that’s a really good question and when i actually get to talk about a lot because we have customers that will reach out and say

that they’re interested in using opensource software more interested in setting up an open source programs office and usually whoever reaches out their

first question is like well where should it be like you know i’m in engineering should it be in engineering

or should it be in legal um and my answer to that question is first of all whoever is willing to champion

like awesome like they they are the right person to start it because because they they believe in it they’re passionate they’ve been thinking about it um but

where it sits is less important than who it involves um so it needs to involve legal it needs

to involve engineering it needs to involve marketing it needs to involve all those groups and and that is key

um so that’s the first step was that your question about how to get it started yeah definitely how to get it started

and and in this current climate uh in with coronavirus and everything that’s happened we’ve seen companies really shift from

focusing on profit to focusing on savings so how do you justify to an abortive executives if you already have

an open source program office that it’s worth keeping around

so i i don’t often see that come up question usually open source programs offices are pretty small like

like ours is just a handful of people although we work with groups across you know we have an open source engineering team and we have a group of

attorneys that we work with and you know other groups but the savings from open source software

not just reusing existing software but opening up your software and being able to collaborate you know directly

with the customers the savings is so huge i mean the the accelerated innovation is

so good that it’s not usually something people want to cut and are those savings are they uh very

easy to calculate or how how do you justify that you’re getting the roi on your open source program office

so i’ve seen a lot of people try to come up with dollar amounts and and you can come up with some dollar

amount um i don’t think it’s usually one-on-one you know i don’t think it’s

usually a real clear-cut number but but usually it’s it’s pretty obvious like um and it’s not even that you’re saving the

money it’s just that the solution that you want to use so like linux and apache and you know the open

source databases like those are things that that everyone just almost needs to use

so it’s not so much that you’re saving money over proprietary software it’s just like that is part of what you need to do business

okay okay that makes a lot of sense and on the topic i guess of talking about um measuring the success of an open

source program office what are some other important kpis that you measure at microsoft and that you’ve seen

uh as a kind of a best practice for industry yeah so we’re trying to measure things

that show whether or not we’re accomplishing our goals um and and for us our goals are

are changing the culture to be more open source friendly so we can use it effectively

friendly is not quite the right word but making sure we’re using open source software in an effective manner um so we’re measuring how many of our

our developers are actually working in open source so at microsoft we have about 50 000 developers and 30 000 of

them have github accounts um so that’s a huge number of of developers that we have that are

working in open source software in some way shape or form we look at how active they are we look

at who’s working on the projects that we open source like are we diverse are people coming are they interesting to our customers and instead of other

people in the world we look at are we contributing back to the projects that we use

so we measure a lot of activity and interactions okay and that was great advice and i

thought i could step back a little bit and almost like in a time machine and if we could look at the difference

in the open source program office at hp assuming they’re the same company to what microsoft’s open source program

office looks like today what are the the main differences that you see have i guess evolved with open source when it

comes to open source program offices so so i think i think a lot of the the

evolution is we understand the licenses a lot better when open source software first

got started um open source licenses were really new um they were often written by developers

not by attorneys and then attorneys there’s actually a license that says

if you use this the software you’re welcome to it but if you see me at a conference you have to buy me a beer

and the a company i was working with was like how are we going to know if one of our

employees sees this guy like how are we going to know if we comply with this license um i hope he got many beers that then

another woman i i i i don’t believe i’ve met the person but it

was a guy’s name um so so there’s there’s licenses were

brand new and they’re written by non-attorneys in the beginning it was a lot of like parsing the license and what did it mean

and did we want to use permissive licenses or copy left licenses and we’ve definitely evolved along that

chain like there’s a lot of best practices companies usually know what licenses they’re comfortable with

you know there’s a better understanding of them i think now the onus is on like trying to

pre-approve to put that word on it as much as possible so at microsoft we try not to

get in the developer’s way um so once we detect the open source software we look up the license

you know if it’s like an mit licensed piece of software that we’re you know very familiar with we will just

let it go like we don’t have to stop them or or ask them any questions or tell them they can’t use it

no beers give him a picture of the guy and say if you see him have a bit okay thank you for that i

think it’s nice yeah it’s gone from a lot of trying to figure out what it meant to like making it super easy okay

and and now that you’ve been working at microsoft is it more than a year now that you’ve been working there with open

source program office what are some of the things that you’ve been working on in that that last year because we know that microsoft is definitely leading the the

movement of open source software for enterprises these days so so we’re definitely

um microsoft itself has made a lot of progress so we’re trying to share what we’ve learned with our customers

and our partners and we’re also trying to share it within microsoft so we some groups within microsoft um are

super familiar with open source software and doing a really awesome job if you look at like net or vs code or

typescript in particular the developer tools group um and then we have other groups that are much newer to open source

or just starting to incorporate into their strategies and so we’re trying to share best practices like that across the company

we do it at an executive level we have an open source executive council that meets quarterly to share best practices

kind of like at a business level um and to look at any policy changes we might want to make um we also do it like

a developer level we have a group of we call them our open source champs um from across microsoft that meet and

talk about what it’s like to use open source on their org and what best practices do they have and they try to share it there too okay and

and i know that like you said it’s definitely come a long way and you’ve learned a lot microsoft itself as a company publicly

came out and said uh or an executive there said that mike open source is a cancer and yet now

they’re at the forefront of the open source movement do you still encounter any naysayers

today about either about your job or the role that you’re promoting i i don’t encounter many naysayers i do

encounter people that are surprised like surprised that microsoft uses the amount of open source it does or that we

contribute back or or that i was going to microsoft but always like pleasantly surprised when i explained the

amount that we use open source offer okay and today i know when i had gil yehuda on the

the uh podcast he was the first he came on as the first guest he said that he used to be uh against

open source and then he just listened to people and learned and realized how great it was so those people are they

ha are they sort of set in their mind or can they do once you explain it to them and the

benefits and how it works do you find that they usually change their perspective towards open source

so people you mean people within the company that might not be people from the company like you said the people that were

surprised i found it was people outside of the company that were surprised as going to microsoft um

open source software microsoft was using but for people that are skeptical about open source software in their company

i think it’s just usually not knowing much about it like it’s just a big unknown um at a previous company i worked at

there was a particular man in the sales team who just never quite got it

every time we’d have a beer at an event or something he’d be like so stormy why are these people doing this in their free time and

at some point i was like i think i think you just need to go write some software and you will see how much fun it is to write software to solve the problems you

want to solve in the world okay and then he did he become a software engineer after that or he

stayed and said he’s still in sales i think he’s a good channel okay

so if we could i guess sum up just the conversation we had about the open source program offices what do you think are some of the most

important things that you’ve learned over the past two decades uh with most of your career being in

setting up and managing open source program offices what do you the most important things that you’ve learned

yeah so when i touched on earlier is that it’s really important to include all of the different um functions in

your organization so i i i’ve worked with really awesome attorneys i find that people

in my personal life when i say i love working with attorneys kind of look at me strange but in open source software um the attorneys that are interested in

open source software are super fun to work with like they’re really passionate about it and they’re really helpful and i’ve

learned a lot from them so i think all the different functions from um attorneys to marketing to developers um to

to high-level executives like having all of those people working together is is really key to

making sure a company has a successful open source software strategy and then another one that another key to

success that i think gets lost sometimes is is actually connecting with the people who software you’re using like i think

sometimes we sit in front of our computer and maybe we do pull requests or we submit issues um but we need to make sure we also like

personally get to know some of the people like go to a virtual conference these days or

you know actually meet who they are behind the software and what does that look like yeah so you go to a virtual conference obviously

it’s difficult in this climate so i guess you can go the virtual conference but would you go to conferences uh

pre-covered or what are some best practices for going out and i guess involving and understanding the

community before you go in and contribute yeah i think i think you should jump in and contribute whenever whenever you’re

ready um but if you start using a particular piece of software or you’re really involved in a particular

area or functionality it’s really important to meet the people and conferences are a key way of doing

that i think the reason there’s so many virtual conferences right now is because we all really miss what we got out of

conferences and so we’re trying to carry that forward um you know with virtual hallway tracks

every week um we have different groups i’m going to have meetups every friday like just trying to like continue that

conversation how have you found the virtual conferences what do you think do you enjoy them do you miss the human to human interactions

that you would have at a conference i i really missed the human to human interaction that comes

besides yeah i i really enjoy never being jet lagged and not having to put on an airplane

no that is good yeah we find we went to a conference and we had a booth at the conference but it just wasn’t the same i think

because when people are walking around to the booths at an actual conference when they’re at home i think they’re cooking or they’re they’re out doing

something or they’re working and so there’s no there’s no flow of people around the booths but

i like to shift gears a little bit and since we’re touching on microsoft contributing to open source i

also wanted to see what some of the best practices are that microsoft adopts when it comes to actually open sourcing company projects

so so inner source um yeah so so inner source has probably

been around for longer than open source but it actually i think is is more is younger in its evolution than

open source um so we’re still trying to figure out what the best practices are and how to implement them within within

companies um i do think that inner source um at microsoft is exposing

some of the the the cultural difference some of the

it’s exposing our own culture um so one of the good things about microsoft culture and they like to say is microsoft has a

really strong sense of ownership around software so if if i wrote a piece of software say a

little tool and you found it useful and you started using it and 20 people were using it across microsoft 20 teams

if anything went wrong with it those teams would look to me and i would fix it but because that’s my software and i’m responsible for it and so obviously i’m

gonna fix it um and you wouldn’t touch it because like you’d be messing with my code and

that would just be weird um and so both open source and inner source require a different mindset so that that one’s a

good mindset but they require a different good mindset where if you find a problem you take a look at it and you say oh

stormy you know i think it would be better if you did it this way and you give me a pull request with the fix already there and i review

it instead of writing my own so i think inner source is exposing more of that internal culture and changes

that we can make to make it even better but it does borrow a lot from the success of open

source okay and if say for uh internal software that you use

if you decide to open source it um i guess what does the process look like

uh actually i first start with the question of if you open source say a company project and you want to build an

open source community around that yet uh still maintain control let’s say use tensorflow as an example

what does the process look like or when should you open source that code or when does microsoft know they should

open source a code rather than keep it proprietary i i don’t think there’s any one answer

for that it’s going to depend on the project um but i think the sooner you open source it

the better often um as soon as you want a clear vision of what it should do and where you want to go

and it needs to have like a minimum viable product to it um but open sourcing it sooner and letting people collaborate with you and

its creation is if you can do that um is awesome now often we get asked to open source

something or we decide to open source something after it’s been around for a long time so and that’s not bad it’s just you’re more likely to

get people more involved if it’s earlier in the process um now once you open

source it i think the the key is less about control and more about inviting people in um and so finding the the users the

people that might want to have some need for that piece of software and inviting them to

participate and i think we found that that’s one of the keys to open source software is that our developers are no longer getting

requirements from product marketing they’re no longer getting requirements from the support team they’re no longer getting requirements

from the sales team they’re getting they’re actually talking directly to customers

through github or wherever they’re working and they’re hearing directly from customers what customers need out of that piece of software

and that is probably a more efficient system people can just get straight to the work because i guess you don’t have to go through a

big bureaucratic process what have you found to be uh effective ways of growing a community around

say an open source company project and what are some examples of open source company projects that you’ve

seen i guess those kind of strategies work well

so i think some of it’s getting the word out figure out who’s using it events are actually a really key part of

that um so and especially a lot of projects with um that run into large projects have events

just for that project but most most sizeable projects have some kind of annual event either of

their own or at some other event where they get everybody together so i think my in-person contact is

is key to growing your project okay and i one thing i just has crossed

my mind i think i’d like to jump back to uh is the idea of inner source um

what is what is really an inner source culture because i know we brought it up when talking about open sourcing company projects but for

other companies out there how do you define inner source what is it

so so inner source so so a company of any size whether they’re

a software company or an automotive company or retail company has software that they’ve written as part of their infrastructure their

solution and inner source is the ability for anybody at the company to contribute to that software to use it

to see how it was written to reuse code um so it’s it’s taking all

the benefits of open source software within that company and even in a more intimate environment

so i can reuse code instead of rewriting something so my company’s not paying three different people to write

the same thing um if if i’m even if i’m not in the id department if i’m using it software and

it has a bug i can fix it myself and contribute it back um it’s it’s enabling tools to be used across

multiple teams it’s enabling code itself to be reused um so it’s open source but within the

within the walls of a company um which sometimes it’s hard to open

source things because maybe you don’t own all the intellectual property for it or you haven’t gone through all the homework to make sure it’s you know okay

and safe to be licensed that way intersource does away with that because it’s all within the walls of your company so it’s it’s even easier

and does that fall under the domain of the open source program office it depends on the company and microsoft

it is but not at every company okay every company is different okay that makes sense uh one thing also

i just since you’ve been at companies that and you’ve had a fantastic career in open

source and you’ve been from h2p i know openlogic and a lot of other companies red hat and microsoft throughout that time what

are some of the biggest mistakes that you’ve seen companies make when either using or contributing to

open source software i’m definitely an optimist i don’t

usually focus on what people do wrong so that’s great i think i think the thing we did wrong

in the beginning is a lot of people were very fear driven like so they were

they were driven by like what happens if we accidentally copy left our software or what happens if we accidentally

release something we shouldn’t or if we get sued and so i i i personally think that fear-driven

motivation like doesn’t lead to good decision making it doesn’t lead to as much collaborative behavior as a more

like what can we do with this new model focus and have and is that that’s

shifting now though and have you found that fear-driven um perspective is is it still around are people still

worried or is it completely changed i i think people are still worried to some extent but i see an active

there’s an act of interest in and not focusing on it so i told you when i was talking to to

microsoft customers their first question is always where should my open source programs office live um should it be an engineer to be in

marketing the second question is usually how do i convince management um to

sponsor this like how do i get them to give me money to do this and i always tell them you know it used

to be we use the fear model and all of them are pretty clear i’m like that’s not where they want to go

which is awesome that is good and it’s definitely a great development it is exciting to see um one thing that

i wanted to touch on was the idea of giving back to communities because a lot of open source a lot of

companies these days rely on open source and they’re what they have the need of wanting to give back so

through contributions by funding the project uh what are different ways that companies can actually give back to the

projects that they rely on rather than just say contributing code

so they should definitely contribute code and then i say companies often can contribute things

that projects might not have um so like at microsoft we have teams focused on accessibility which a project

might not have someone focused entirely on accessibility so if we see things we can contribute in that area

that that’s even more valuable same with design and product management documentation like all those areas

around code but that are necessary that’s really important there is money so you can give money to

projects we actually started one this year called fast fund where every month we give ten thousand dollars to a project that

microsoft depends on that might not get any official funding from from other places

yeah actually dwayne o’brien from indeed started it um and various companies have picked it up so it’s a fun theme

i think that’s fantastic yeah and we let employees nominate and vote on which project should get the the funding that’s

fantastic yeah so you could give you could give areas around code um you could give money directly um

you could give marketing in a sense like so when big companies talk about like you know

here’s our software and it uses apache like that’s really good for the apache project right so we can

give marketing and recognition and name awareness to those projects so that

others know about it i think there’s a lot of ways to to give back um you could do

actually evangelism like microsoft has developer advocates for a lot of open source software projects

and they’re out there talking about those and helping people figure out how to use them okay and that’s good to say that

microsoft such a big company is giving back like that because i think i think we’ll start to see even smaller

companies start to give back uh in other ways and just contributing code but how have you seen the shift because

previously i think people had at least from what i heard i wasn’t in open source at the time but the attitude towards paying for open

source was just something that people couldn’t even fathom yet now people are starting to pay

for open source so uh how have companies been changing the way that they’re actually paying for open source i know

you mentioned there was donation uh but are there other ways that people have paid

so i i think there’s been a big shift in the last 20 years from like most people that worked on open source software did

so like in their free time in the evenings and weekends to i think a majority of open source software developers these days have a

full-time paid job working on it um so that’s another way companies are contributing back as they’re paying full-time

software developers to work on projects i think also with the shift to the cloud

and to like you know much more complicated software solutions there’s been the recognition that software

isn’t you’re not always just paying for the code um you’re paying for the service you’re

paying for how it all works together you’re paying for more than that and is

there what do you use service providers at microsoft how do you say get the support or training and

different services that you need for open source projects that you use do you do that internally do you have a team that

manages it or do you say contract with service providers so microsoft

um has a lot of the solutions ourselves i’m not exactly sure which which services you’re referring to but

we have programs that actually help you know startup companies to help services that want to provide services

through azure um so in general we provide those types of resources to to others okay uh

now we’re coming to the end now and i wanted to ask you more questions one of them being what are some of the trends

that you’ve you’ve seen that companies really should be aware of enterprises should be aware of in the

coming years well open source software is really here to stay

like not leaving no but it but it still continues to be like the the headline um

i think people will continue to collaborate more and more and i think the the solutions are

there there’s a there’s a couple different trends i guess but but one of them i think is is key is that

it’s we have to figure out how to balance the volunteers with the the paid stuff so a lot of the software

solutions are becoming so complicated that you kind of have to focus on them full time to be able to to make a

meaningful contribution and we need to make sure that there’s a good balance and good room for volunteers to still

focus on it not just volunteers but maybe our customers who just have a couple hours to try to fix a problem

so i think balancing the the complexity of the solution but making it simple for people to contribute is something we

need to continue to focus on okay that was fantastic and i know you said that you were an optimist

and before and so i’m really excited to ask this question but what are you most excited about with regards to the future

of open source software i’m most excited about going back to in-person conferences [Laughter]

i i think i think the the types of problems that we’ll continue to solve

are are always evolving like um just look at things like wearable tech and all the data that’s

available about ourselves and this whole combination of big data and open data

with open source software i think is enabling um

it’s not just software but it’s intelligence around our world and how we interact with it that i think is going to be really amazing

we’ve seen this with with kovid um you know microsoft and many others have played

around with a lot of data around covid to try to build models and and help us understand

where we’re at and where we’re moving and what’s working and what’s not working and i think continuing to play with that

data um in an open way so that we can collaborate together is is going to change the world

and it is changing the world and uh software was eating the world but now open source software is eating everything arguably

and so so exciting to be part of this movement i’ve only been around for about a year but i know you’ve been around for longer than that

and um i just want to thank you for your time because i’m so so happy that you were able to come on the podcast it’s been

great talking with you and i wish you all the best going forward thank you i really enjoyed the conversation

thanks for having me thank you and for all of those listening uh if you like what you listened to today

or if you watched it on youtube then please like this video please subscribe and leave a rating

and review letting us know what you think of the podcaster that’s the only way we can improve but also it shows a lot of support so

thank you very much for everyone stay safe and until next time see you later

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