hey everybody welcome back to the 14th episode of open source for business
brought to you by open teams my name is henry badri and this is the podcast
where you can learn from the world’s top open source software experts about how to better manage the open source
technologies that you use at your company today i had a fun and engaging conversation with
patrick mcfadden who is the vp of developer relations at data stacks patrick is one of the leading experts of
apache cassandra which is an open source database management system some of the topics that patrick and i
discussed today that i found really interesting were the changing attitudes towards open source from the 90s
to today patrick gives a few examples of how open source has reset the economics of building software in the past
and he goes on to explain how kubernetes is resetting the economics once again today another topic that i found
interesting was the importance of site reliability engineers in the database world this podcast is sponsored by open teams
the first market network where users of open source software can find vet and contract with service
providers open teams is your single source for everything open source now that you have a better idea of
what’s to come in this podcast let’s turn up the music [Music]
great henry it seems like we’re in the same room it’s crazy it seems like we’re in the same room you’ve
got a green screen i’ve got a little bit of more of a white background little i think this is waves i haven’t quite figured out this picture yet but i think
it’s the ocean it looks like waves um if yeah if i had planned ahead i probably would have been
running open broadcast studio and then i could have had real waves behind me but nope then you
would have got that next time next podcast would you have we have you on again but yeah thank you so much for joining us patrick you
originally uh you spent a lot of your career in education so can you take us through a bit about
that journey sure and actually that’s how i got started with open source um i worked in in california
in the california state university system um in the early 1990s um this is around 93
94 we were starting um two and i was just some young idiot that
was helping network everything that possible but and this is when we were starting to bring internet connections to every
single community college every single university we had a thing called c4net um but in that world in 93
we were also trying to figure out how to get machines going and you know like we
we had some choices but they weren’t very good because there was a lot of very expensive unix systems out there that was my first real dip into open
source software which was linux we were running a lot of our systems on like
0.8 kernel um in 1993 and it was pretty wild west it was when
i first learned how to be a kernel hacker because the only way you can make things work but i mean i i worked at cal poly state
university for quite a few years and i worked on some of the bigger projects there um and then eventually i
i left i left the university because that’s what you do but that was you know we were doing all
open source work back then and what was the open source community back then was there a community or was
it really just linux and a group of hackers uh that weren’t really connected or part of this thing called open source
yeah no there was definitely a community i mean there was a community that went way back i mean you’re talking about free
software foundation and uh the new um emacs i think has been
had you know in the 1990s had been around for at least 10 or 15 years um but it was i think it was really funny
how it was much more of a fringe element for sure um you know i remember talking to somebody at the late 90s about using
open source software i was like oh it’s just a bunch of free software hippies that you know why would we use that software
but there was a pretty strong community i mean this is when we had this is when apache software foundation got started
and i remember talking to like the email to brian bellendorf who was one of the
founders of asf about the apache server which was what everyone used for hdbd
and it was a small group of people but it was funny how it grew really quickly like there was this core group of people
that believed in open source software because it was the only way we were going to scale and
uh that you know you look at what the choices were um in the early days of the internet
there was a lot of proprietary software that was really expensive and kind of difficult or impossible to work
with um so it really took a personal effort on your own
and free software at freeze and freedom not freezing beer to make things work and that’s that’s
how i mean and that was that community of users that we were right and when did you start seeing the
popularity of open source increase uh when did that start to happen um because i know you were just saying it
was linux is that really what kind of other maybe we’ll start with what kind of other projects were around then that had this
open source idea around it you know it was is interesting because i i wound up leaving the university and
getting all wrapped up in the stupid.com thing which was a lot of fun but um it was also really dominated by
proprietary software and it was sun oracle bea
i mean there was those are the software stacks ibm was involved you know websphere and things like that
um it was really after the dot-com crash um when we didn’t have millions of
dollars to throw around and uh it turned into more of a ground ground effort like we’re down here at
the bottom we have nothing but hopes and dreams only one way to go and that that’s
really i started uh i saw i started an open source consulting company um to just do software builds and
deployments with open source software in 2001. mainly because there was hardly any
contracts left but um it really started taking off and that’s when you saw like the lamp stack
come from you know like the linux mysql php um apache web server and
you know then it that’s the i think there was that resurgence of like what the dot com craze should
have been and that’s when like the googles the facebooks myspace um the companies that were
actually doing things at scale we’re starting to really push forward quickly all the technology and open
source were these companies using i say but for the dot-com crash uh you said that
not a lot of companies are really using open source what was the reasoning behind that what was their attitude back then towards it
oh it was it was easy i mean it was a just a perception of well if i didn’t pay for it there’s no quality
or it’s insecure um and you know especially things like
operating systems it’s like well i i paid sun for this piece of software
and i have a support contract but then you know red hat kind of killed that off and did a nice
job with it it’s like if you are an enterprise company we have a plan and that was what made a red hat really
um that was turned them into a billion dollar company is that they they gave people the option
um but you know it’s it’s some things like do you think google could have built google if they were
paying sun and oracle license fees for everything you’d probably not no no yeah and
was the when was the explosion of the open uh all of these open source projects when did you really see it start
becoming such a global phenomenon or was it like that in the beginning was it when you’re at hobsons was a lot bigger than
say when you uh when you were using linux in the 90s yeah we we standardized our most of our
stack we had a like just like everyone in the early 2000s we had a standard double stack you know we had linux and we had microsoft
windows you know windows server and um but linux ran most of what we needed to
run and you know that’s i think that was when things really turned
because we went from well as a lower quality to yeah this is the only way to get this
done and uh what was really fascinating me is it was around it was the validators were the googles
and the facebooks because they were building these massive scale companies off of open source software
and i think that’s really what blew it up and and then eventually cloud i remember
the first time i used amazon in 2008 there was no proprietary software involved none
it was all open source and um the cloud just took a match and threw it on the
gas like there you go boom and that made it really take off at that point because we were depending we were uh
deploying things at such a massive scale you know open source software was the only thing that would keeping up
why why did you say open source really explode what do you think was driving that so that is very interesting is open
source has really done an amazing job of resetting the economics of every era in computing
um and the first big reset was in the 1990s when we we reset the economics of an
operating system and what’s fascinating is i tell people
today about yeah an operating system oh yeah i remember paying some like ten thousand dollars for us
to run on a certain server and uh you paid for an operating system like
yes we paid a lot and it reset the economics and then in
the 2000s it reset the economics on the application tier um and then it eventually
it reset the economics and like infrastructure full-blown infrastructure with cloud
um data databases um middleware all of that um
and the driver is you know is costs um that’s why i keep saying that we’ve
reset keep resetting economics is because um we can’t if there’s a if you’re
buying 10 things at a certain set price and it was priced because you’re going to buy 10 of them what if you need to
buy a thousand of them well the unit economics don’t work anymore and
open source software moves so quickly and responds so well that it it resets
the economics so quickly that i think that’s a big part of it in my opinion is and now we’re going to see it
again kubernetes is doing it going to reset the economics one more time for cloud companies find that it’s a lot
cheaper and it works better these days but was it always that case to companies i think companies now at least just what
i’ve observed in the industry is they’ve realized that yes open source is free do you have to pay for some things whether it’s support or training or a
lot of other services uh to help that software work for you was that always the attitude of companies or did companies uh
previously did they think no hey this is free why should i pay for it what what did that look like and how did that
change yeah there’s there was a lot of delusional thinking back in the days like well
i just downloaded and use it right yeah well okay sure but the leading indicator of that
delusion delusional stuff was how big engineering teams were growing because it’s like well we have a team of
people that will help support it internally so you are paying for it
well no we have a team of engineers right okay um but it was i think there was you know
red hat like i said you know that was the first you know big open source company and a lot of people
say it was the only company that could have ever done that but um
what what i think it was this shift and a really good shift somewhere along the line is that
somebody finally said you know what open source means that this is a there’s a contribution
aspect to this and sometimes you like full disclosure i work at a
database company they’re an open source database company um people pay us to support and run
apache cassandra i’m perfectly happy if you want to go use apache cassandra open source i mean you have to live in that dual world but
one of the things that i think has really made open source successful as an adoption play
is where there’s a bit of ownership at some of these large companies um you know facebook google
netflix are all strong contributors to open source you know they have committers and open source projects and
it’s just an understanding you know like i i have uh friends at netflix who you know that’s
that’s their job is they contribute to open source but it does affect and it’s because they want
to have a hand in what’s going on with this project so things have shifted you know how you
pay for things now you have a choice you have a lot of choices you can pay a supplier or you can
buy some engineering time so you spent quite a bit of time at hobson’s and then
you moved on to data stack so can you talk about that evolution what led you to move
yeah it was uh it was out of education yeah you got off the shackles and you
you ran free i made it no i’ll get pulled back again
um maybe not this time maybe i don’t know we’ll see um but yeah what
it was was that i was the story i like to tell people is i is i you know as a chief architect there i was
responsible for a lot of the decisions around technology and um i was de-platforming oracle as
fast as possible because i was just sick and tired of paying the for what i didn’t feel like had any value anymore
but what some of the things that this is and this is in 2010 2011 is we were changing the type of
scale problems we were having then um that was about the time that a lot of nosql databases became a
glimmer in some developer’s eye you know open source projects popping up all over the place
and it’s funny because i i think man i want to go back to that era again and
try to take notes about like all the open source databases that came out during that time because i think a lot of them got lost in time
but there was a lot and what i what i was looking at is like i i have a scale problem that is
unique but it wasn’t um and then there was this database apache cassandra um i just i i landed on it for
what it did but then as i got to know it more and i started actually working with it contributing to
it it was clear i was like this is a legitimate database and um i
think this is the future that was where i saw it it’s like okay we’re making a transition point i saw the cut point
and so we’re going from proprietary databases or very kind of an old-school version of
a relational database into this whole another era of scale databases distributed systems cloud and
as i’m working on it working on it i became more involved in the community and then eventually one of the
co-founders who i knew it at a company called riptano um he’s like man why don’t you want to
just do this all the time and he kept asking me and asked me i’m like oh man i don’t know
all right and then finally i’m like sure i’ll do it and then they change their name to the company to datastax right about that time and i’m
like oh man but uh yeah riptano to datastax it was the thing that really appealed to me was
like i feel like this is a really cool next-gen for me is now i’m going to be
really involved in a project that i believe in and i really feel like this is a database my kids will use
yeah that’s what me gave me that it was my background with open source and infrastructure that kind of led to that was the all the
paths that led to this one point and i’ve been here for eight years now
yeah i guess it’s stuck yeah now you know you’ve got shackles on again and you’re stuck in the database world
you’re not gonna leave uh so did you have github back then are you you’re using github so
you had at least you could uh you could pr or you could use it to have a pull request but one thing that i can’t really grasp
is how did open source work before that what did you do because it all seemed quite simple now working together on the
internet but it wasn’t always that easy was it oh henry you’re making me feel old man
tell us how it was in the good old days yeah i was like well we got pieces of paper and we gave it to a you know we gave it to a horse and he
wrote it down yeah just shipped it in we had messengers and sometimes they would get
killed and you’d lose your commit no no it wasn’t that bad um it was
well so with apache projects it’s funny because it was just not too long ago maybe five years ago
that we switched over to get um before that it was scp
um which or svn sorry uh which was a better version of uh
cs or cvs which was a concurrent versioning system so there were there were source control
systems in use but it wasn’t get get was actually it’s really funny because i i saw the
the lecture that linus torvalds gave did you know linus torvalds invented git
yes i did yeah i was doing i used to post quite a few photos of say famous people in open source or well-known people in
open source and i was surprised when i saw that i didn’t know that was that he did originally before
didn’t he that was the first thing he did yeah no it wasn’t actually it was something it was a it was a labor of of anger
um you know is working on the you know as someone who’s working quite heavily on the linux project and of course because
he’s the guy he was just he was over using cvs
and cvs was it was a really difficult system to work with if you had a lot of changes and mergers
and things like that so he just like ah and you know went into his little cave and came out and says i have
get and in linus’s style he his first yeah i saw this it was a
lecture or a presentation he did at google that was recording you can probably still find on youtube but basically he was saying
cvs is like brain dead stupid it’s dumb why would anyone ever use it it’s a
piece of trash i mean he was just so linus and then he explained git but you
know in classic linus fashion he was completely right and man everyone just moved over svn was
used a lot at apache software foundation um you know that and then eventually moved over to get
but we did have versioning systems that just weren’t as nice what are some best
practices for say anyone working in an enterprise that uses open source uh and
and they’re working with open source communities what are some best practices for working with those communities yeah and that goes right in line with
what i do a lot of and i do work with a lot of companies that you know they have clear goals economic goals you know they have a
business to run and they’re not just software companies um but i think that uh
that was a that was an adage from oh who said that it was like every software every company
is a software company and it’s true i mean that’s part of how we do things
the best practice of like how does a company like an enterprise work with open source it comes down to
participation you know don’t don’t be you know if you’re if you’re a casual user
and you’re not really participating that’s fine i mean we love our users but you have to embody
this feeling of sharing and interaction if you want to get the most out of it
and it it sometimes and it’s this has changed a lot over the past few years i remember like in 2012 even
14 15. it was so hard to get an enterprise user to get past pr
and everything to talk about what they were like something stupid like how i installed cassandra using vmware
you know and they’re like well you can’t talk about that why and uh companies like netflix
you know they completely blew it down i mean they have netflix open source like if you look at their github you’d
think wow i could totally build i could build netflix myself just based on doing a bunch of get polls yeah really there’s a lot more
to it but you know they’re very open about what they do more companies are starting to do that i
think of like capital one which is a huge financial services company ing a huge bank both have these really
cool open source program management stuff where they participate you know they get involved and you think
wow bank is talking about how they do things yeah they are um and so that means
getting on the mailing list that means you know filing jiras if you run into a problem
um maybe doing a presentation uh just little things that you know a blog post
about something these are things that help our communities all be a little bit better and
it what it does also is it creates an interaction pattern with the rest of the community so when you have trouble
you now have friends and you can go back and forth and that’s the best time when i see that
like oh this thing broke oh i know what to do they fix it and there are two companies that are probably rivals but they’re on
asf slack and they’re working it out together it’s amazing that is amazing you’ve got that collaboration between companies but also
companies now working with the open source communities now i know that one of the reasons seems that companies are doing that is because
if you’re seen as an open source friendly company then good developers and great developers and also open source contributors which are obviously
in very high demand they see that as such an amazing thing so they want to work for those companies
i found that also a lot of those developers it’s great for retaining talent because
if you’re allowed and you’re paid to work on open source projects then developers love that what are some of
the other reasons other than say retaining talent and attracting great talent that companies are now
getting more involved with the communities well i think it’s partly what i just mentioned is is if you become an island then you
eventually there’s consequences to that it’s it’s just not it’s like taking one little part of what open source can do for you
and ignoring a good portion of it that is great um you’re right but why would you
so like why would you attract these really great engineers because they think it’s really cool and
interesting software to work on if if a company doesn’t interact with the the world around them
in open source then you know it i think it’s just a time bomb that’s ticking you might you might as well just go use
proprietary software yeah yeah yeah that makes sense and i know one one project that we
talked about in the prequel that we had was kate sandra can you talk a bit about that yeah that’s my new thing
my new shiny toy keith sandra is a project that we started uh we started data
stacks but it’s just growing into other companies as well it’s a it’s a project and this is this
is what i really love about this it’s not just a bunch of bits it’s a project for running cassandra on kubernetes
and the most of what is it’s about is the sharing of knowledge you know
it’s this knowledge is code that knowledge as code instead of knowledge as code as infrastructure
you know coders infrastructure we went there but this is knowledge as code and so as as we’re learning how to run a
complex distributed system on a complex distributed system um we will learn things and there should be
as many opportunities for us to share that information as possible you know because it’s this is we’re all
in this together eventually and that’s that’s really the focus of what keith sanders about
um yeah there’s you know there is development work that needs to be done i mean we’re building
kubernetes operators that work well we have connectors that connect uh parts like
kubernetes uh the kubernetes ecosystem such as prometheus and fluentd with cassandra
but it’s also you know like we’re going to be having i run a bi-weekly sig um for
for this and it’s always going to be like hey i’m trying to get my storage system and i have this going on in this
cloud and i don’t get it to work right oh well here’s how you do that and
and then it turns into a pr like hey we can codify that like if you’re using you know ebs
gp2 and you use these configurations this is the way it should this is the best practice for making it work
that that carries that knowledge forward and uh that’s what’s most exciting for
me 2021 you know for kate sanders going to be like building out this massive
knowledge base in a helm chart helm install good to go and is uh data stacks
monetizing that project no no no okay it’s an open source well what it is is actually it’s really
interesting is we um we have our cloud product which is because
a is cassandra’s a service but it runs on kubernetes
so the benefit we get by sharing is that where we’re sharing all the
information we know about kubernetes running cassandra kubernetes but we want us you know we’re exchanging
information other people are like oh we’re learning things from other people so there’s a benefit
you know we’re embracing the open sourceness of this it’s like if we don’t get all walled garden and
just kind of huddle and you know this is our information not yours if we’re very giving about the information we will get
it back we’ll get new things back and we have we’ve gotten a lot of really cool stuff that we put in production on our cloud which means
someone some other cloud provider could use that information as well that’s fine but you know we
we how we monetize it eventually is that it’s just we have a better system for
for us to sell in our cloud product and what are some of the challenges that kate sanders been facing or that you’ve
been working on ah boy right now it’s uh kubernetes
kubernetes was built around the idea of running uh stateless systems and stateless
systems such as a web server uh microservices that sort of thing and
running a database on kubernetes is a fairly new concept it’s because those are stateful services
they require deeper uh integration with storage and
different concepts with networking so the biggest challenge that we have right
now i think is just getting um getting that aligned properly so that whenever you deploy it
that you’re getting like a real common problem with running cassandra kubernetes is you get the default storage provisioned
and sometimes it’s not what you need because it’s a database it needs to have fast storage and it needs to have
performance let’s just get into performance like low latency storage um
if you’re connecting to an nfs share with you know epic 50 millisecond latencies then you’re not going to have a
successful database implementation but you could easily tr fall into that trap
yeah because whenever you ask for a persistent volume kubernetes is like oh here’s one try
this and these are the these are lessons that we have already been learned
um and we’re we’re getting better at how to be declarative about making sure you
have the right we’re working with other projects like open evs to make sure that we have a better setup
and this is a really cool thing too about kate sanders it’s you know as we get it not it’s just not cassandra there’s
other projects that are going to be involved and you know to solve some of these bigger problems
and where do you see what’s your say five or ten year vision for kate sanchez where do you see it going uh well my my
very publicly stated goal is to make cassandra the default data
database for kubernetes but eventually what i what i feel like is gonna happen is that
um with kubernetes because kubernetes in the way that it’s been what the goals for that project are
which i i think is great is really i don’t want any developer to ever really think about a database ever again
i think that those days are coming to an end we should be talking about data services and when you deploy your application you
connect to data services without thinking about what the underlying database is and we have another open source project
called stargate which is a really cool name it’s its main purpose is that creating
api gateways for data services it’s now included in kate sander if you want to deploy it
within 10 years i think that you know a developer should be able to develop an application in a day or two
that scales as much as you possibly want um at an economical and very
economically in the cloud and i have to worry about it where do you see open source heading say
let’s 10 years down the track or even further without a doubt we’re we’re going to see
more conflict between what cloud can do and what open source is but it feels like from where i’m sitting
now that there’s a lot of we’re solving some of the initial problems we have with open
source versus the cloud like this is what data stacks i feel like you say um i think we solved the problem here is like
our cloud product is also an open source product so you know we there’s the economics
work both ways and we hope that you’ll rent it from us but if not just go ahead and download it
that’s fine um eventually though i think and this is where i think a lot of the future is going to be dependent
on is how many people even want to download anything and if you’re not interested in downloading anything then you’re just going to rent it from somebody
um i suspect that that’s that will still be very heavily dominated by open source
and it will be a matter of sharing between some of the largest companies in the
world in a really funny way like apache cassandra is you know if you’re using it every single day
because it’s used it’s dominated apple and netflix huawei it’s used
on ntt docomo so when so any phone you probably are using right now
is is connecting to cassandra but all those companies have people working on it and that’s that core infrastructure
um i think that’s still going to be the case for a long time because we’re going to see these really funny collaborations between
companies that you never thought would collaborate but they’re going to do it
one thing we did discuss in the prequel is sre so first of all what are sras and where do you
what role do you see them playing in the future well let’s take it from what probably is more
established in people’s minds as a dba database administrator and dba has
traditionally been the ones that have been responsible from beginning to end on a database
deployment from installing it running it maintaining it even talking to developers about how to
use it properly um they’re they’re the the knowledgeable oracle of source
for all database stuff um that role is starting to get somewhat
subverted by just the bigness of what we’re trying to accomplish with infrastructure
and so you mentioned sres also not new site reliability engineer but it was a
term that was coined at google and uh there’s a great book about it and it started out pretty slow but now
it’s really picking up steam is and the reason being is because it’s embodying something is really important
it’s not about the what you install it’s how you install it and how what does it mean
to the business so sres are much more involved in the cost economics of
hey if i’m so they’re balancing this experience for the end user
and what it the bottom line for the company and they’re balancing those things really well
we’re trying to so you know when you’re using a mobile application and you want the best experience they’re
going to make sure that they’re deploying the right infrastructure to make sure anybody in the world gets a great experience
um and dbas i i really i’m on a mission here i want
to see dbas up level themselves to sres because they already have a lot of their requisite knowledge they just need to
add a little bit more but you know sres are going to be the the torchbearer for open source
infrastructure deployments for a lot of reasons i wanted to shift gears a bit and i know that
throughout last year you and i met a few times and we talked a lot about the pandemic and everything that was happening
how do you think 2020 and the pandemic that really has continued to now affect business or
impact business oh boy it’s accelerated so many things and you know it’s it doesn’t go without stating depend
there’s nothing good about this pandemic nothing it’s caused a lot of problems and
you know there’s we will be studying this for a lot of time a long time 20 years around we’re still
talking about the pandemic from 1918 there’s nothing good about it um but
one of the one of the things we talked about as a result is that it really accelerated a lot of
digital transformation and in in a lot of weird ways too
um i think i shared the story with you as like like a local slushy shop you know as soon as we had started
having lockdowns they went online and they were i mean you could order a slushie and they delivered to your house
and you know that was amazing they’ve they turned on a dime and i don’t know what service they’re using
like stripe or something like that but they they figured it out it’s like okay this is the way we’re gonna do this
and um i i think that that genie’s out of the bottle um yeah
and the companies that just never really got there are going to disappear or already i mean
we’ve already had a record amount of bankruptcies this year or 2020 and we’ll see more in 2021
because if you didn’t go there then you’re not you’re not gonna make it and and it’s big and small
um you know i um like i i was i think i told you the story about home depot
mm-hmm yeah this is one of my favorite stories because it’s like as they’re looking you know home depot
is a pretty amazing technology company um i work a lot with those teams
and they use a lot of cassandra to power that and like when you go into a home depot you
know big home warehouse home improvement warehouse and you’re looking for a screwdriver or something
um they have an app on your phone that will tell you where exactly it is in the store it’s really cool unlike ikea where you spend no they put
you through a maze on purpose yeah and at the end you get a meatball
exactly yeah um but they took that that you know they already had a pretty
decent technology platform and whenever the pandemic happened they’re like we can’t have in-store
traffic so we’re gonna do curbside pickup within weeks they had flipped everything into this
this project and they were doing home uh curbside pickup and you know that that’s a good example
of how digital transformation and they were just confident in their ability to do deployments within a few like within a
few sprints and they had something that was and because of that the valuation of the company
went up through the pandemic target is another company in the us that did that um so these are
i think these are the stories we’re going to tell which are going to be like well that’s what changed yeah and what role
has open source played in all of that oh their entire stack is open source yeah
i mean they’re using cassandra for a lot of things they’re using um a lot of spring i know that home depot
they use a lot of that but you know their teams are really they’re really oriented around
open source you know they do a lot of talks um uh sean daugherty um is was a cassandra
mvp so he’s really i just saw him on the mailing list the other day he’s one of the chief architects there at home depot
so i mean they’re really involved in open source and you know shout out to sean you know i
love that guy he he’s uh you know he’s got a day job but he spends time
interacting with you you know with community and answering questions on a mailing list and then taking a step back even further
from that what role do you think open source has played uh in this digital transformation that has
happened in 2020 during the pandemic oh man no digital acceleration might you
call it yeah digital acceleration it’s a big deal is just it shortened
sales cycle without having to get into a sales cycle like i could you imagine you know like
getting into a big long contract conversation with somebody like ibm or somebody like that um
and six months later you finally get an agreement it’s like or 18 months which is pretty
typical for a large enterprise deal so it just made it easy for someone to
just take something and you know pluck it out of github give it a try you know we can hack project it it gave
so much freedom to everyone to try a little something new without having to you know without that
cost but also the understanding that this is this open source software i can i can understand it i can look at it i can
pick it apart there’s a community that will support me um i think it just really accelerated a
lot of that without putting a lot of these weird barriers in front of us and i know you’re a very optimistic person that’s what i’ve
figured out uh since i have got to know you quite well so i just want to wrap this
podcast up with a question one of my favorite questions what are you most excited about with regards to the future
of open source software oh i can’t wait to see what happens when we start emerging from this
planet and the interstellar needs of data and uh software like what’s gonna happen
there i mean we already start we’ve already started seeing like open source software in satellite
but you know this whole space race is really fascinating like i hope open source has a place
there because it just is one of it’s like the next big really interesting crazy thing that
humans will do and i hope it has a big place there well thank you so much for joining us patrick i really do appreciate it it’s
been great chatting with you yeah thanks henry i really appreciate it and for everyone listening uh thank you so much
for listening and thanks for tuning in again if you like what you listen to today or if you’re watching this on youtube then
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